Descent or Twilight Imperium?

I should have put Dungeon as a classic on my list of awesome analog games yesterday. I feel like a real idiot for leaving that one off.

Has anyone played Descent? A lot of the guys at BGG like it, and it seems like it could be right up my alley; sort of a venn diagram of Dungeon, Heroquest, and Talisman.

Bonus question: if you could only get Descent or Twilight Imperium, and you realistically could only play with three people total, which one would you get?

Double Bonus: Ryan isn't as into the geeky games as I am, but Nolan really, really is. If you could only pick out one two player game that isn't a CCG and plays really well with two players (not like "I can do this with two players, but it really plays better with four) what would it be?

Comments

[Chris Filson]

For a two player geek game I would go with Squad Leader and/or Panzer. It's not of the fantasy geek variety of games, but good for the grognard geeks.

[Chris Filson]

For a two player geek game I would go with Squad Leader and/or Panzer. It's not of the fantasy geek variety of games, but good for the grognard geeks.

[Chris Filson]

For a two player geek game I would go with Squad Leader and/or Panzer. It's not of the fantasy geek variety of games, but good for the grognard geeks.

[Chris Filson]

I am such a friggin' noob. Sorry for the triple (ugh, triple?) post. Too bad the comment page can't let you delete ones noobness.

[Wick]

Sticking with Chris' "not of the fantasy" theme for a minute; if you've only got 30 - 45 minutes - OGRE. If you've got an hour or so - GEV. Beer and pretzel gaming at it's best for the grognard-lite crowd.

But to answer the original question; Twilight Imperium would be my choice, and I don't have to tell you why. You can't make me.

[Wick]

And yeah I agree with Chris about the Squad Leader, it take a bit more of a time commitment, but man it's a great game. I have an extra copy of the ASL rules along with the first 4 or 5 modules. You want 'em Wil and they're yours. My gift to you for all the great writing.

[David W Boyd]

I've played (and own) both, played two or three times for Descent, and many more for Twilight Imperium (in all of its versions).

They're both fun, but scratch different itches.

Descent is like an old-school hack-n-slash D&D game -- an updated version of GW's old Dungeonquest/Heroquest. It's the heir of that genre, the best thing along those lines ever.

It plays as a Master vs. Players game, and it's balanced so the Master will usually win against fewer than 4 players. He can't even "not try hard". If that's OK for all involved, fine; it makes the occasional win even more glorious. Fun when you win (as the "players"), short when you don't.

Twilight Imperium is the heir to the 4X game genre, in board form -- think Ameoba Wars, or Throneworld, or Stellar Conquest -- or for computer games, Masters of Orion. The third edition, currently available, used to be terribly unbalanced (the designer had just found out about German games, and copied the role mechanic from Puerto Rico, but got the role balance wrong); the expansion fixed it. Don't get it if you can't get the expansion (Descent has one too but it's not as neccessary).

It plays as an explore, build-up-your-forces, research-new-tech, fight-your-neighbors-for-territory, gain-victory-points kind of game. A free-for-all. It plays every number of players from 2 to 6 well, except maybe 5. Provokes whining from players being preferentially attacked, if they're prone to that kind of thing. I dig it hard.

They differ a lot in everything except physical presentation -- both are gorgeous and solid and have wonderful bits. Personally, I prefer the space opera theme to the sword-and-sorcery theme, so there's that. And Descent is skirmish scale, whereas TI is strategic in scope. Both are awesome, but I think there's probably more replay value in TI. It's also maybe somewhat longer.

Can you tell me more about what pushes your buttons, game-wise?

[Dave DuJour]

Wow Wil, you finally got me to create an account so I could comment! After many, many years of reading and loving your blog (except for the poker). :)

First, go buy Descent RIGHT NOW. You'll love it. The kids will love it. Your friends will love. Go buy it! I got my copy about a year ago and it's great, especially for 3 people. I've also got both expansion and are having fun with them too. They add nice monsters, traps & tweaks to the game. I just want the campaign rules to come out.

I also have TI and I have to say I've never actually played it. (Sure, I've set it up and "played" a few turns by myself, but what true gamer hasn't done that with any game?) It looks wonderful, but I haven't found the people & time to get a game together. I love the concept of a massive "4x" game on a board. I want to play it sometime, I just don't know when that will be.

I think Descent would be the better game for 3 people. It's shorter for one, and probably works better with 3 than TI. TI really seems to want 6 people (and 16 hours). Descent can be played in an evening, although it'd be a long evening for some of those maps.

[David W Boyd]

I just realized I answered Bonus Question, not Main Question.

Descent is good.

Double Bonus: do you guys play any "german" games? Settlers, or anything like that?

[raphael]

Wil,

My money's on Twilight Imperium, and I respectfully disagree with David Boyd about the imbalance -- unless you're playing with people with a specific taste in playing that want to exploit some weaknessses in the system to their nasty end. That said, the expansion does shore up the game and enhances it.

So you know when you first read the Foundation trilogy and it gave you this galactic-level perspective of politics and trade? That's Twilight Imperium in a nutshell, and it evokes the same emotions as reading Foundation for the first time (or the fifteenth, really). Oh, and the Kzinti are in it (in all but name), so it evokes emotions of other beloved novels as well. The game polarizes people into love it/hate it camps, but then, so does Munchkin.

Also, as stated, Descent is a very good game, and it even works with two players, but you are no doubt aware that one of them is going to be the DM.

The question is, Wil, are you feeling more like a fantasy nerd or a science-fiction dork?

[towers16]

I the two Decent can easily be played with 2 people. Where as Twilight Imperium would require at least 3 or four people to give me enjoyment. Another plus is that descent has dragons, giants and hell hounds. All with there own red or white plastic figures. How can you not love this game.

[raphael]

To answer the bonus question -- you totally should buy Battlelore, dude.

Each battle plays in under an hour, there's magic, there are awesome monsters, there are dwarf mercenaries who are awesome, and goblin mercenaries who suck, and it is the most overproduced (but lovely) game ever made.

If you ever played Warhammer Fantasy then this will feel vaguely like it, only really fast and playable.

[Wil]

Wow, David. Thank you! I'd give you geekgold if we did that sort of thing, here.

Answers: I'm a big SJG and GW fan. I cut my gamer teeth on Illuminati, Car Wars, Talisman, and games in that vein. I love the Chez * games and pretty much all the Out of the Box games.

In theory, an epic-scale game makes me very happy; in practice, though, it's nearly impossible to set aside the time to play it all the way through.

I mostly play with my teenage kids (17 and 15) these days, and my wife will get in if it's a game like Settlers or Talisman, but won't join us for Munchkin or Frag.

I'm relatively new to German games, but I really enjoy Settlers, and I keep hearing that I'd like Puerto Rico.

I've played a few of the DoW games, and have had a great time with Pirate's Cove (house ruled a little bit, so if you get hurt bad on the first turn you're not effectively out of the game.)

Mostly, I'm looking for 2-3 player games that I can play with my kids, who can be very competitive and Rules Lawyer-y if I don't stomp down on that pretty early in the session (yay for sibling rivalry.)

From the responses here, it sounds like we would have a lot of fun with Descent, and I may have ti just buy TI on principle.

[Dave DuJour]

I'll answer the bonus questions directly I guess.

Bonus: Descent, based off my experience playing Descent vs. looking at/reading rules/watching others play TI.

Double Bonus: Descent. Actually, 2 & 3 people Descent is the exact same game. In 2 player Descent the "Hero" player runs two heroes. In 3 player there are 2 "Hero" players and one "Evil Overlord". And the "Evil Overlord" is NOT the DM. He's trying to defeat the heroes as quickly as possible, not lead them through the dungeon.

[Jason]

I haven't gotten a chance to play either Descent or Twilight Imperium yet, so I have to leave that alone. But for a game for 2 players, I'd suggest something that isn't nearly as complex as ASL or Squad Leader (both heavy wargames.)

If you'd like an abstract strategy game for only two: Yinsh
Abstract Strategy for 2-4: Ingenious
For a euro that has lots going on, I'd suggest either Goa, San Juan or Hacienda (my current favorite). Taluva seems to be pretty good for 2, but I've had it less than a week, so I don't know how it will hold up in the coming months.

I know you enjoy Munchkin, which isn't my cup of tea, so keep in mind; all of those are euro-esque suggestions. For something a little more warlike, Hellas has tile laying exploration, with army combat and clever card play. Nice and short (well under an hour) with a price point at about $20.

[eckeric]

Hannibal: Rome vs. Carthage

If I remember correctly, Hannibal is only a 2 person board game (although it does use cards to resolve combat) and I remember it being fun. My friend and I would play it if we couldn't get a group together for Machiavelli.

[Ryan Macklin]

The game that's most often brought out when there's only two people over for one of our game nights is Mystery Rummy: Jack the Ripper. (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/106 )

It's a quick, pick-up card game that uses rummy-like rules but with a theme of trying to catch Jack the Ripper. It works brilliantly with two players, but you can also accommodate three or four without losing quality of play. The set-up time is nil.

The theme's subject matter is dealt with in a bit of a clinical, historic view with facts on various cards regarding the real life suspects and victims involved. That said, I don't believe the game goes into gruesome detail that a parent would want to avoid with their kids.

The rules are simple, it's a quick pick-up, and there's enough to keep the replay value high. It's available on Amazon right now for under $15. There are other Mystery Rummy sets, but I've not found any of the other ones to have the same enjoyment level or replay value as the Jack the Ripper one.

(If you do pick it up, I advice throwing out the "voting" rule. It's a side rule that our group doesn't play with and I find is a detraction from the game -- your mileage may vary, of course.)

But, it's a card game. If you want to stick with board games, I highly advise Memoir '44 ( http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/10630 ) -- it's built to play with 2 but can, if needed, support more.

[Lou Wainwright]

Wil,

For 2 player games I think you guys would really enjoy War of the Ring. One side is the Fellowship and the other is Sauron. Totally gets the feel of the series and it's got awesome figures, cards, dice, corruption, and Gollum...it's got everything. And it is a great game with high replayability and good balance. You guys should love it. Takes about 3 hours for a game (including set-up...which is a bit long.)

For a shorter game I recommend Battlelore. It's the newest game in a very successful head-2-head combat series. Previous games were based on the Civil War, WWII, and Ancients, but Battlelore brings magic and monsters to the battlefield. It's a tactical combat game with lots of dice and luck, but thinking ahead is well rewarded.

Shorter yet, and getting away from the fantasy based combat games, there is a great two player card game called Lost Cities. Simple to learn, fast to play, lots of fun, and it's the only German game my wife can consistently beat me in, so she likes it.

Three player games are harder, although either WotR or Battlelore can be team played by splitting one side's jobs up.

[Wil]

Jesus, you guys are awesome. I really can't thank you enough for taking the time to not just list games, but tell me why you like them. :)

When I get the kids from school, we're heading to our friendly local game shop with a list.

A list, dammit! A LIST!

[David W Boyd]

Hmm. OK, if you can't play a nine-hour game, I believe you must regrettably pass on TI. Descent does sound like your cuppa, but it's also somewhat more involved, with more setup and such, than the games you've been playing lately.

Picking a game, when you haven't played it, is tricky. It sounds like you like adventure games (like Pirate's Cove or Dungeon) more than purely tactical games.

My best advice is to go play some more games! There must be a local gaming group, maybe meeting once or twice a month, that you could sit in on... but failing that, well, most German-style games work better with more than two. Not all of them, of course. The new version of Lord of the Rings: Confrontation is a very neat little two-player game, much shorter than Descent, or any other game we've talked about...

Drat. I could recommend a laundry list for you -- but that's what it would be. I have a hard time thinking in terms of only a few games, played relatively often, since I've been more of a neophile, and have accumulated about 300 cubic feet of games. (Seriously. I need to get rid of most of them.) Boardgamegeek does the list thing better than I do.

Maybe you guys could try Carcassonne, it's fairly easy to get non-gamers to play it, there's a ton of expansions that make great presents, there's a big-box-with-all-expansions version out... Puerto Rico is indeed a very good game, but three is the minimum... hmm. There's also San Juan, a lighter, much faster card game version of Puerto Rico. A good lunchtime game for office workers.

Gah! I feel like I'm trying to sell you a suit, over the telephone! Just go look at ratings on BGG, look at the pictures, read the reviews!

[Matt]

I've never played Descent, so I can't comment on it, but have played TI a few times and enjoyed it. It's a somewhat complex game though, so we find we have to reread the rules whenever we play it.

That said, the rest of the posters have convinced me I need to buy Descent as well! I think my gaming group would really enjoy it.

For the double bonus question I would recommend Carcassonne series. I have played the original and Hunters & Gatherers and have found both to play quite well with 2 people and easily expand to more. Both play in 45-90 minutes with 2 players. My gaming group seems to prefer the H&G version.

Above Wick mentioned the Ogre/GEV/Shockwave series also gets a strong vote if you can find a copy. If you liked Car Wars and the fairly simple Steve Jackson d6 mechanics, you will likely enjoy those as well, but they are fairly strictly 2 player.

[Wil]

Oh, and I should clarify that I really like strategy and tactical games, but my kids don't have that much fun playing them with me, due to my "age and treachery" advantage.

[darthsnugglebunny]

There's a two-player variant on Settlers of Cataan that's quite good. It uses cards instead of the giant hexagonal board, but the general principle (outbuild your neighbor) is the same. It's by Mayfair as well. Yay for sharing nerdliness with younger generations!

[sothicus]

Descent is by far the better game for 3 people than Twilight Imperium. TI has some problems with the mechanics of the game with just 3 players.

If I could suggest an alternative FFG game however I would go with Runebound. It is by far the better game because one player doesn't have to play the Game Referee as in Descent. Also it has numerous expansions available.

For two player games, I'd suggest the following:

Fantasy: Munchkin, hands down.

Sci-fi: Federation Commander (and not cause it's Star Trek based), it is a great tactical game and works very well for 2 players

Other: Dual of Ages

[raphael]

Lou is right -- War of the Ring is such an awesome game. It's also one of the best values, because you get so much for under $50. Brilliant, brilliant game.

Battle Line is another two-player card game by Reiner Knizia, but I actually prefer it over Lost Cities. The art is fabulous as well. It won't be reprinted until Summer, unfortunately, but I was so enthusiastic about it to the owner of Game Empire during Orccon that he got one of the last remaining copies at the GMT booth.